David Chapman (@Meaningness) header
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Better ways of thinking, feeling, and acting—around problems of meaning and meaninglessness; self and society; ethics, purpose, and value.

Joined September 2010
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💀 Halloween post! "How to create a functional mythology." This is a vampire story I have told no one before. It seemed too dangerous. The post is also about death, and sorcery, and philology, and The Lord of the Rings, and heroism, and our future.
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Been thinking a lot about variations on "The Tolkien Test" for AI (whether an AI can create a coherent epic featuring original characters and an original world.) (My impression is that current foundational approaches are not asymptotically approaching this capability, but I do not have theoretical reasons why different approaches might not.)
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Just recorded a podcast with @JakeOrthwein! Myth, heroism, death & deathlessness, Christianity & Buddhism, Tolkien, tantra...
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Replying to @s_r_constantin
Important questions! Big pic: which "some things" to delegate to machines is key; as is reversibility, like you say. Technically: the "mashup" process is not at all understood, and "all the books and articles ever written" include a lot of terrible ideas we don't want used.
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This is all I have and it’s not even mine
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Announcing a major milestone achieved by my team @GoogleDeepMind: we have proven key security properties of the machine code underlying the Signal messaging protocol. This is the first time the actual production code of a widely deployed protocol has been formally verified – by any method, with or without AI – and at this depth. More than a research breakthrough, it’s a prime example of how frontier AI can be a force multiplier to counter the speed and scale of modern cyber threats. Formal verification offers a higher standard of security; however, it’s extremely complex and time consuming, which is why in many cases it’s considered to be impractical. Similar efforts could take teams decades of combined effort. We did it in a month’s time. Using AlphaProof Code, Google DeepMind's new agentic framework for formal verification that runs on LLMs including Gemini Carbon, we verified the Signal protocol down to the actual code running on devices.  This milestone lays the groundwork for a future in which vital systems, from medical device firmware to power grid software, ship with mathematical proof that their protections work. Reaching that future will take continued research from our community. In that spirit, we're open-sourcing our formal specifications and verification artifacts so others can build on this work. On a personal note, this moment is of deep significance to me. I started my own research journey more than two decades ago as an intern working on checking the consistency of complex software systems. Seeing this grand challenge made practical with modern AI is extraordinary. I'm extremely proud of my team members: Swarat Chaudhuri, Andrew Ferraiuolo, Anton Kovsharov, Tej Chajed, Sam Schlesinger,  Karn Seth, Jonathan Katz, and Charles Sutton for taking on this grand challenge and delivering, and grateful to the Signal team for their partnership. deepmind.google/blog/formal-…
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Of Patrick's trilemma I think the obv one to sacrifice is utilitarianism - IMO it's been clear for a long time that it is going to have really perverse conclusions when taken too far, and the interesting/hard question is what is "too far." E.g. @tylercowen raised this critique here conversationswithtyler.com/e… ; I also see this as a big part of the implicit argument here: forum.effectivealtruism.org/…
Two things I’ve been thinking about regarding AI: • People often highlight the risks involved in AI, which are surely very real. I’m struck, however, by how hard it is to understand the contours of the positive scenario. There are easy-to-perceive and frequently invoked elements of a positive vision — more diseases cured, more material abundance, etc. — which sound great, but these are by themselves just ingredients. I’m curious what the larger equilibrium is supposed to look like. Do people work? If so, why? What is their marginal contribution? If not, how are resources allocated? What is scarce? What is the ratio between humans and AIs? Are humans in control, whatever that means? One sometimes hears the Culture novels invoked as one scenario, but I’m not sure they depict a desirable outcome. (AI runs everything and humans compete in games? Iain Banks himself said that the humans in the Culture are “somewhere between passengers, pets and parasites.”) There is Richard Brautigan’s famous poem, but do we want to be “returned to our mammal brothers and sisters”? (Isn’t that rewinding Genesis?) We could say that it was hard to imagine the world of 1900 from the vantage point of 1700, and that’s assuredly true. But nobody in 1700 was trying to recast humanity itself within a couple of years — things necessarily unfolded slowly and by increments, and therefore with the possibility for error correction. Given how rapid the rate of progress in AI may be, it feels strange for the upside case to be so opaque. • There is increasing discussion of whether AIs are conscious or how we would know whether they are, with conclusions there often assumed to be relevant to matters of moral worth. At first blush, this seems a rather arcane, benign, or even absurd issue. (Remember the response to Blake Lemoine’s fears.) Setting aside the terms of the debate itself, or the relevant demarcation criteria, it seems to me a quite high-stakes question, for an affirmative answer — that is, granting moral worth to AIs — would presumably mean that the aggregate worth of AIs would soon outweigh that of humans in any utilitarian calculus. The AIs will be exceptionally wise and intelligent, and vastly more numerous (especially once one considers the imminent future and the AIs not yet born). As such, even epsilon of moral worth will multiply to a lot once one considers the quadrillions that could soon exist. (This is effectively a distributed version of the Nozick’s utility monster.) If this conclusion is unpalatable, I think one of three propositions needs to be rejected: the premise AIs can have moral worth; utilitarianism itself; or the belief that there is even a possibility that they will be far more numerous than humans. With both of these matters (contours of future society; AI moral worth), there is the possibility of dramatic change. Today, people argue about datacenters. I’m curious how popular support for AI will evolve as more people come to understand these medium-term questions and the relevant stakes. What is the vision for AI that most people would be excited about?
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So why do the EAs & other moderns adopt this historically odd & recent approach? The answer, is that they're asking you to construct a utility function. Now, why would someone approach a project of moral improvement with the utility function, of all things, as a tool?
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🤖 Strong agreement: yes, only the most oblivious and obstinate rationalism could lead you to suppose it's sensible to hand over control to AI. Geez. xitter.twitterapi.xyz/RuxandraTeslo/status/2…
Why should we not yield full control of our future to an entity vastly more powerful and intelligent than us? Many people relying purely on "logic" think opposing such a future is a form of prejudice and lack of open-mindedness -- indeed I have heard this argument made increasingly in certain circles. But David makes a good point here: many of our intuitions around meaning and other such fuzzy concepts may encode ways of protecting us against death or other terrible outcomes, even when we cannot fully explain them from first principles. David gives the example of our desire not to lose our jobs. I would add, in the context of AI handoverism, the reluctance of most humans to cede control to an entity vastly more intelligent than ourselves. My guess is that this instinct captures something about the dangers of placing ourselves entirely at another entity’s mercy. The problem with a certain strain of rationalism is the impulse to discard any intuition that cannot be reconstructed from first principles, often accompanied by not much desire to acquaint oneself with the history that might explain it (everyone can just opine on anything if they just use logic is a good principle, up to a point). Intuitions can, of course, be wrong. But we can also go too far: lindy instincts often contain wisdom. I think the full rejection of human intuition, as well as a lack of desire to acquaint oneself with history and works of literature and philosophy outside a certain rationalist canon explains why ideas whose dangers would once have seemed obvious acquire the glamour of daring intellectual discoveries and lead many towards repugnant conclusions.
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Fearing "loss of meaning" from AI job loss sounds trivial vs. fearing death. But I think desire for meaning evolved to prevent being ostracized, maybe fatally. Most sources of meaning (e.g. helping others, being skilled) are also reasons to support you. So it's a similar fear.
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Many hopeful delusions breaking up in the sky now, with debris starting to arc to earth. The repudiation of MAGA and/or AI might precipitate a broader cultural reset. Wondering if this is a historical turning point.
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Time to bring back this banger
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Two things I’ve been thinking about regarding AI: • People often highlight the risks involved in AI, which are surely very real. I’m struck, however, by how hard it is to understand the contours of the positive scenario. There are easy-to-perceive and frequently invoked elements of a positive vision — more diseases cured, more material abundance, etc. — which sound great, but these are by themselves just ingredients. I’m curious what the larger equilibrium is supposed to look like. Do people work? If so, why? What is their marginal contribution? If not, how are resources allocated? What is scarce? What is the ratio between humans and AIs? Are humans in control, whatever that means? One sometimes hears the Culture novels invoked as one scenario, but I’m not sure they depict a desirable outcome. (AI runs everything and humans compete in games? Iain Banks himself said that the humans in the Culture are “somewhere between passengers, pets and parasites.”) There is Richard Brautigan’s famous poem, but do we want to be “returned to our mammal brothers and sisters”? (Isn’t that rewinding Genesis?) We could say that it was hard to imagine the world of 1900 from the vantage point of 1700, and that’s assuredly true. But nobody in 1700 was trying to recast humanity itself within a couple of years — things necessarily unfolded slowly and by increments, and therefore with the possibility for error correction. Given how rapid the rate of progress in AI may be, it feels strange for the upside case to be so opaque. • There is increasing discussion of whether AIs are conscious or how we would know whether they are, with conclusions there often assumed to be relevant to matters of moral worth. At first blush, this seems a rather arcane, benign, or even absurd issue. (Remember the response to Blake Lemoine’s fears.) Setting aside the terms of the debate itself, or the relevant demarcation criteria, it seems to me a quite high-stakes question, for an affirmative answer — that is, granting moral worth to AIs — would presumably mean that the aggregate worth of AIs would soon outweigh that of humans in any utilitarian calculus. The AIs will be exceptionally wise and intelligent, and vastly more numerous (especially once one considers the imminent future and the AIs not yet born). As such, even epsilon of moral worth will multiply to a lot once one considers the quadrillions that could soon exist. (This is effectively a distributed version of the Nozick’s utility monster.) If this conclusion is unpalatable, I think one of three propositions needs to be rejected: the premise AIs can have moral worth; utilitarianism itself; or the belief that there is even a possibility that they will be far more numerous than humans. With both of these matters (contours of future society; AI moral worth), there is the possibility of dramatic change. Today, people argue about datacenters. I’m curious how popular support for AI will evolve as more people come to understand these medium-term questions and the relevant stakes. What is the vision for AI that most people would be excited about?
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i hate tech halloween, wdym you’re AI misalignment
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I gave a talk for the Oxford AI Safety Society, and they got me by far the best gift I've received for giving a talk: a custom made jigsaw puzzle of Oxford + a cute shoggoth! 10/10 I'm very impressed, good market research
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Thread on the clichéd inversion of heroism in contemporary fantasy [h/t @anielsen108] xitter.twitterapi.xyz/eigenrobot/status/2118…
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