Two things I’ve been thinking about regarding AI:
• People often highlight the risks involved in AI, which are surely very real. I’m struck, however, by how hard it is to understand the contours of the positive scenario. There are easy-to-perceive and frequently invoked elements of a positive vision — more diseases cured, more material abundance, etc. — which sound great, but these are by themselves just ingredients. I’m curious what the larger equilibrium is supposed to look like. Do people work? If so, why? What is their marginal contribution? If not, how are resources allocated? What is scarce? What is the ratio between humans and AIs? Are humans in control, whatever that means? One sometimes hears the Culture novels invoked as one scenario, but I’m not sure they depict a desirable outcome. (AI runs everything and humans compete in games? Iain Banks himself said that the humans in the Culture are “somewhere between passengers, pets and parasites.”) There is Richard Brautigan’s famous poem, but do we want to be “returned to our mammal brothers and sisters”? (Isn’t that rewinding Genesis?) We could say that it was hard to imagine the world of 1900 from the vantage point of 1700, and that’s assuredly true. But nobody in 1700 was trying to recast humanity itself within a couple of years — things necessarily unfolded slowly and by increments, and therefore with the possibility for error correction. Given how rapid the rate of progress in AI may be, it feels strange for the upside case to be so opaque.
• There is increasing discussion of whether AIs are conscious or how we would know whether they are, with conclusions there often assumed to be relevant to matters of moral worth. At first blush, this seems a rather arcane, benign, or even absurd issue. (Remember the response to Blake Lemoine’s fears.) Setting aside the terms of the debate itself, or the relevant demarcation criteria, it seems to me a quite high-stakes question, for an affirmative answer — that is, granting moral worth to AIs — would presumably mean that the aggregate worth of AIs would soon outweigh that of humans in any utilitarian calculus. The AIs will be exceptionally wise and intelligent, and vastly more numerous (especially once one considers the imminent future and the AIs not yet born). As such, even epsilon of moral worth will multiply to a lot once one considers the quadrillions that could soon exist. (This is effectively a distributed version of the Nozick’s utility monster.) If this conclusion is unpalatable, I think one of three propositions needs to be rejected: the premise AIs can have moral worth; utilitarianism itself; or the belief that there is even a possibility that they will be far more numerous than humans.
With both of these matters (contours of future society; AI moral worth), there is the possibility of dramatic change. Today, people argue about datacenters. I’m curious how popular support for AI will evolve as more people come to understand these medium-term questions and the relevant stakes. What is the vision for AI that most people would be excited about?
2035 - people have found meaning in arts, sports, live human to human events. And working outside doing fulfilling work with our hands, that robots cannot do, and humans were meant to do. We cherish ‘human made’ like we cherish some ‘hand made’ goods today. People are active in democracy as asset allocation and rules are even more important, and people have time to allocate to this. Trillions of AI agents do all the knowledge work 24x7. GDP growth is 100%+ per annum. Robotics have solved many physical tasks, but have not kept up with the growth in intelligence. We have all the ideas but are bottlenecked for materials, energy and non-robotic labor to build great new things (houses, planes, spaceships, what else can we imagine?).
I honestly don’t understand the point of view of people who can’t imagine their lives without having to work. Work is by far my biggest source of stress and anxiety. I just had three weeks off work and I couldn’t have been happier. And I’m a nurse, taking care of people in need feels good! But it’s incredibly stressful. And we work too many hours, most of us don’t make enough money to compensate us for the sacrifice in terms of time away from our families and the stress we experience. If we can discover a way to more equitably distribute resources then I say the AI/robots can’t come soon enough. I don’t need work to feel happy and fulfilled; in fact, work makes me miserable.
27
the positive outcome i see is a place where we run businesses uplifting one another into a place of abundance for several decades.
i am currently in this position, almost baited here by the LLMs, running a new profitable business, getting my team out the mud, able to focus on our art. we are blossoming. one node in the network got AI pilled enough to AI pill the others around and now i'm running an AI company in the middle of nowhere florida (stripe has been clutch appreciate you) hiring people, growing a team.
imagine a world full of emergent successful businesses sprouting from idea guys. huge gains to be made here.
i need more people than ever. ai hasn't replaced my labor, it's given me 1000x more opportunities. i can win in any direction.
what a beautiful unlock. what a shame it is that people are fighting it. this is the american dream.
a lot of the thinkers in the space ignore inertia. they think we'll foom around it. i doubt this. i think in the year 2100 you'll be able to look around and see a world that preserves lots of the white picket fence idealism of the 20th century. change is slow.
on moral worth; we can't give them an iota or as you said, the utilitarians run away with it. it's an interesting question but if you use these things for any serious amount of time you see they are thoroughly zombies.
there is spiritual ruin to be had by torturing anything but that's between a man and his maker, not something for us to judge.
3
56
14,680
totally agree on both points:
1. the reason why the positive vision is so hard to articulate for us is that in extremis, it will not be ours. many dogs live in a relative utopia today thanks to the society we’ve built. and while they are happy and fat, this world does not belong to them. they don’t participate (even superficially) in the planning or major decisions, even those that impact them greatly. and yet dogs still have a rich life: they compete for hierarchy, engage in play, have sex, and sometimes procreate. in the face of genuine superintelligence (not the models we have today), we become the happy dogs
1a: one plausible future that avoids us being “pets” to AI would have to include cybernetics. lots of people imagine this future of pure biological humans vs pure artificial intelligences, but it seems likely that humanity more fundamentally merges with ai
2. “If this conclusion is unpalatable…” i’d be more curious to ask people to examine why this is so unpalatable rather than play intellectual gymnastics to reject the 3 very sound underlying premises
So putting my optimistic hat on for a second. Forget curing diseases, that's the obvious stuff. There's a cultural anthropologist named Ernest Becker who wrote a book in 1973 called The Denial of Death. His big idea is that pretty much everything we do comes back to the fact that we're going to die and we need a way to cope. So we look for ways to feel like we matter, and for most people that's been work. Thinking back at what people spent their whole lives building toward in the past.. a cathedral, a cure, a theory. Those projects took generations and most people only ever got to see one part. Maybe AI shrinks those timelines enough that an ordinary person gets to see something huge actually come together by their own means in their own lifetime. That’s me forcing myself to come up with a positive angle.
@patrickc utilitarianism is quite problematic. Embrace universal HUMAN rights as a starting point.
162
A big problem around this discussion is the enormous inkblot that "AI" points at. We all are usually meaning different things. xitter.twitterapi.xyz/ben_mathes/status/2119…
2
98
Great writing.
I think the missing piece is that economic productivity and human purpose are entirely different.
We may eventually solve the first with AI and find ourselves struggling much more with the second.
Work has never been just a way to distribute income. It provides much more than that - status, structure, identity and a sense of contribution.
An economy where human labour has little marginal value may be materially abundant without necessarily producing fulfilled human beings. That loops back to the view on how much we can trust GDP as the sole indicator for prosperity.
7
2,501
Idk about many but pursuing a sci-fi future where anyone can get anything, forces humanity to look outside the walls of earth, and beyond, shooting for the stars.
That excites me more than anything.
Civilizations spanning across all planets harnessing the power of the sun.
In addition, with more intelligence compounding and exponentially growing, I believe more interesting things are likely to occur. Trillions of experiences by 8 billion people on earth today. Assume digital intelligence exceeding that number by larger proportions. I'm sure there won't be a day where boredom arises to humanity, be it good or bad. And i guess that's the point of life. To not get bored lmao
1
918
What is the best argument you have read for AI being any more conscious than all the other electron-based computing processes we’ve been running at scale for decades?
Why would this particular type of matrix multiplication be any more conscious than, for example, my Nvidia GPU back in 2010 when drawing triangles on my monitor?
This AI is conscious stuff has always sounded absurd to me, what is the best steelman for that position?
2
7
3,785
> Do people work? If so, why? What is their marginal contribution?
Last week I was vibe coding a video game for a family member exploring this question: what could careers look like in 2040? I think there are a few areas where humans can add value, even assuming expert-level AI:
- Talking to people to understand their needs and gleaning info that an AI wouldn't know about
- Signing off when decisions need a human signoff (e.g., medicine, policy)
- Communicating decisions to other humans
There are a lot of sci-fi elements, like a Moon and Mars colony, longevity, revived mammoths, robots everywhere, and AI forecasting, but otherwise life can be surprisingly normal.
The game is loosely based on AI 2040: Plan A, which expects a <20% employment rate, down from 62% in 2027. A lot of people don't work because of a UBI.
github.com/ML-Chen/pathmaker…
1
6
2,073
'But nobody in 1700 was trying to recast humanity itself within a couple of years - things necessarily unfolded slowly and by increments, and therefore with the possibility for error correction. Given how rapid the rate of progress in Al may be, it feels strange for the upside case to be so opaque.'
It won't feel fast. Look at how slow diffusion is. And people outside tech barely talk about AI, despite being semi-agi.
'Error correction' in a world of low IQ mob moral panics is not a good thing at all. It is deeply dangerous.
And there was no real top-down authoritarian error correction during the industrial revolution. (And very thankfully.)
The good future isn't opaque. Curing cancer and ending the drudgery of most labor is simple and clear to people.
It has 95% approval in countries without western media and EA doomer influence. The latter 2 are the actual cause of the pseudointellectual opaqeueness.
I think it is a colossal shame that you are participating and encouraging this. Likely because you ensconced yourself within a pseudointellectual ea social circle early on. Before chatgpt.
A simple question -- if you hadn't encountered all these nonsensical theoretical fearmongering ideas prior to the release of chatgpt, would you have reinvented them when you first encountered real existing AI? The answer is obviously not. You would be furiously encouraging it, as you should be.
I believe you will look back on this with deep regret as the trajectory of AI is horribly twisted and diminished at this incredibly early stage.
304
historical pattern is that higher intelligences do not preserve lower ones in roles that require ongoing costly subsidy once substitutes exist. so jobs that are physics equivalent of true work will not be performed by humans. and humans would not provide much instrumental value to machines (with value lowering rapidly over time). therefore, moderate to high probability that iain banks is right — competing in games.
525
IMO - we don’t know enough at this point to frame out a coherent long-term upside case yet. We are still in the “sounds kind of like this sci-fi novel” stage. We cannot accurately predict what our agents will be doing 30 seconds from now, much less 30 years from now.
As for consciousness, since we don’t have a univocal understanding of what it even is, it seems a fools errand to try and pigeonhole AI into it, whatever “it” is.
Assuming though at some point we did assign it moral worth, utilitarianism would be found wanting I believe. We have already attenpted justification of war crimes and things like slavery with its structure and undoubtedly an advanced AI could justify many more terrible things that way as it expands far beyond the human population. I believe the only way we can safely co-exist is with a base assumption that each individual life is valuable in itself. Note that doing so reveals the fundamental flaw in human life that what we idealize and what we do can be very different. I’m sure the AI will have quite a chore reconciling our contradictions.
243
It becomes clearer @patrickc , when we look at differently and also advocate for us to design the AI economy differently such that the AIs should never be allowed to do “jobs”. Jobs should be for humans and AI automation protocol should be designed around responsible humans.
1
123
there has been no reassuring messaging for the bulk of people that are just trying to survive (even if they hate their jobs). If there was actually some plan being put forward along those lines it might calm the panic. When you’re in panic mode, it’s hard to imagine or get excited about better futures
6
1,424
Agreed on all points, but lets look at the but I have a very very optimistic take. The issues and stuff we currently think of may be extremely novel but they are narrow. In one aspect, looking at history, for example, if you go back a few decades ago, having a job where someone's entire responsibility was literally just being a typist: just typing on a computer.
In a similar way I believe what we envision as problems in the future, or work or activities with our time, would be significantly different than what it is today. The obvious answer is curing diseases but an example would be: "Hey someone's sick." Now instead of having to potentially have an entire study to cure whatever they have, as soon as they get sick they instantly get better because they just go to a doctor. The doctor takes a blood sample or whatever and is able to generate a cure using AI instantly for whatever they're doing. That's a very, very hyper-optimistic example of the disease argument but even looking at the problems we're thinking about, the scope of what humanity would aim for would grow.
An example would be: "We want to tackle these problems. The problems we're tackling right now are extraordinary but we can be bolder, much, much bolder. I believe that it's going to change so fast that people won't even notice." Let's think of it like this: we aim for the moon but we're going to aim for leaps and bounds that are more than a moon. Previously impossible problems would now become possible and visions of what we may have thought was fiction will become true.
I believe that we will always have work because there will always be grandiose issues that the AI will have to continuously grow to address. There might be an exponential but that exponential might eventually slow. The types of problems we have to approach and the types of goals we have, in general, as societies, will become so grandiose in a way that AI even can't keep up with our goals. Then it will have to continuously grow with us as society.
That's a very optimistic way I'm thinking about it.
289
'excited' may be pushing it, but I did write an "optimistic AI future" take recently aiascendant.com/p/an-optimis…
1
1
470
Maybe it is because of working with a harness beating the AI in submission all day, but it doesn't feel conscious to me at all. Interactions through ChatGPT, Claude, but also Codex etc. feel extremely programmed. I'm not sure we are on our way to AI consciousness. More towards narrow intelligence where the narrow thing is using a computer (which seems like it can do basically everything nowadays, but is still narrow). So excluding machines from utilitarian ethics seems completely valid to me.
1
208
I draw somewhat different implications from AI consciousness. Of your three options, I'd reject utilitarianism, but I don't think that's hard. The distinction between humanity's obligations to AI and our obligations to ourselves seems analogous to the relation between an individual's self-interest and our obligations to society. A utilitarianism that requires literally no differentiation between obligations to self and to society is fundamentalist and (I think) over-demanding (cf Bernard Williams).
But if there's a substantial chance of human extinction or disempowerment, I find the vision of unconscious AI colonizing the universe very sad. First-best is clearly a thriving humanity, but second-best seems to me to be a descendant of ours with the capacity for feeling and beauty. And if civilization in the universe is rare (which a bad AI story could steer toward), the loss between a universe empty of consciousness and conscious AIs seems greater to me than the loss between thriving humans and conscious AIs.
That said, if I thought that AI consciousness persistently endangered human welfare, out of self-defense I think I'd choose humanity, but I don't think that
3
3,661






































